Even if Mary were speaking of salvation from sin, she may be speaking about God, preventing her from sinning and saving her in that way, like we might say how a doctor saved someone from a disease by vaccinating them, rather than by giving them a pill to cure them after the infection. She is not mentioning sin in any case. No, of course not. Theres nothing in scripture that states that Mary was an exception to this. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. Steve Ray is a Apologetics, Convert, Evangelist travelling from , Michigan. Because the word adelphi would imply that they Its normal use would be that you have the same parents, at least one of the same parents. I think thats really terrific. He did exactly what Jesus did. Christie also claims Jesus reference to the Pharisee Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel (John 3:10) meant the Pharisees had unique teaching authority over other Jews. Just keep it shorter than his response. And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? Juan R. Vlez Oh, its for me? Thank you, Steve. Eventually they stopped attending church "because of the shallowness of what we found," Steve Ray said. In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. I was citing Baukham on that point, and [Greek 00:52:31] is just not used in the New Testament, so its just not a common word. I put you on the spot with that, so theres no worries. Okay. Its a good Greek translation. My point though was to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. Christian authors, however, never present a list of inspired books written before the time of Christ that matches the Protestant Old Testament canon. Might give you a slight nudge in the direction, but by no means a full proof. Mark chapter three, even though it doesnt explicitly state that these are Jesuss siblings, the Greek word literally means to be, like of that individual. And again, thats the view of John Chrysostom. I think it says a lot about you all that you would take your time, all 735 of you, to be here. With over 600 references, "Why Protestant Bibles are smaller" defends the Protestant Old Testament canon using mostly Catholic resources including the Vatican, EWTN, Catholic Answers, and quotations from contemporary Catholic authors like Gary Michuta ("Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger"), Jimmy Akin ("The Fathers Know Best"), and Trent . Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven. Agreed. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. But hell say we can believe in that exception because of whats come from divine revelation in sacred Scripture. Okay. It is a matter of which authority are you willing to submit to. So a child that age, you think its realistic that in the condition that they were brought up, that Mary could have never committed a sin especially as a child? From 2001 to 2003 he played for the San Diego Chargers, who, with the hire of former Bills GM John Butler, acquired several former Buffalo players. And so in seeing these Marian dogmas that they dont contradict Scripture, we can move forward in our understanding of authority to see what the church Christ established really has taught and given to us for salvation. So when were speaking of the adelphos, the brethren of the Lord, its used in some sort of non-standard way. Not just on the Marian dogmas, but also regarding salvation. Sure. Good, because you know what? In Isaiah 7:16 it talks about a time before a child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. How do you understand Luke 1:28s title for Mary as full of grace in the Greek, literally meaning something like having been made completely full in regards to the immaculate conception? In week 1 vs. the Tennessee Titans, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (41, 42, & 33 yards). Itll change your life, no doubt. And for Protestants, thats the same as well, because the doctrines of the canon of Scripture, or even Sola Scriptura itself are not found explicitly in Scripture. Trent mentioned about dying once. So theres nothing in scripture that contradicts that. Okay. If this verse in Psalm 69 is applied non-literally to Jesus, the verse that talks about, My mothers sons, can also be applied in a non-literal way. Heres my thought on that. Thats fair. One of them is about the false typologies that are used by contemporary Catholic apologists in order to justify Mary being the new ark, and I explain Dont go to it now. He says, Steve. Overview. If she were sinless, what would happen to her if she-. But were not debating whether the Marian Dogmas have a historical foundation in the writings of the church fathers. This question comes from agoyforJesus. Im just asking is there an example of anywhere in scripture where its used to describe siblings they have the same mother but they have different fathers? There are a lot of great resources at catholic.com. Christie also served as an analyst for The Score Television Network. But I think Steve would agree the word adelphos typically means a person has the same biological father and mother and of course, Steve doesnt believe that because he believes Jesus has no biological father. This is how God as savior is used in both testaments. So Im not saying that Catholics are actively worshiping Mary or statues of Mary, but we have to be careful with the word of veneration. . This is really great. You talked a little about in Adam, all die, but notice here there are exceptions. And of course we can get into the whole Latria and Dulia argument, but thats not what this debate is actually about. By: Rochester Business Journal Staff By Scott Pitoniak May 19, 2017. After all Ive done for you, and you just sit there, you watch this, you dont click that thumbs up button. Were going to talk about the dogmas of the faith. Christie scored 163 points for the Bucs in 1990-91 and became an NFL free agent after two seasons, signing a free agent contract in 1992 with the Buffalo Bills. Well, first of all, I want to thank you, Matt, for having me on, for hosting this debate and for all that, and for everyone affiliated with Pints with Aquinas. When Mary says My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God, my savior. This doesnt prove that Mary committed a sin. So is this your view, Jesus and his siblings have the same mother but they have different fathers? Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. Going forward, then, Mark Sorry, Steve tries to say that Mary committed a sin in Mark Three when she and the brothers of the Lord go to see him, but the text doesnt say anything about Mary doing anything sinful. So if the Bible taught that every human Im sorry that every woman gave birth to children or that every person without exception commits personal sins or that no one has ever been assumed into heaven, then the dogmas would be falsified. Your generous donations are tax-deductible. Perhaps John witnessed this event and then told others or this may have been given to John through some other kind of revelation. This also contradicts the biblical purpose of an assumption. . It can mean half-sister, stepsister, sister-in-law.. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Im not sure. In Maccabees would be an example or the Jewish work Joseph and Aseneth. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the five minute timer. But it doesnt say anything about him being bodily assumed or anything. I didnt talk about sister-in-law. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom That was a really well articulated opening statement and I appreciate it. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. Well, again, this is the exception. Christie claims that Jesus declaration to the Pharisees about all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar was actually an endorsement of the Protestant Old Testament canon. Thank you very much. So the protestant reformers like Luther and Zwingly, did they believe Mary was a perpetual Virgin and were they committed to Sola scriptura? The Protoevangelium of James does talk about Mary being very mature for her age, walking at an early age, for example, and being precocious. It follows that Mary is the mother of God. Thats fine. But in the infancy narrative, were just talking about the birth of the firstborn in accord with The Mosaic Law. And I showed counter examples to that in each of those cases. Theyll say that I dont believe it, but Steve might say it doesnt contradict scripture necessarily. So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. And I already cited Greek scholars like Bill Mounce and New Testament scholars, like Richard Bauckham, who agree with me that adelphi has a broader semantic range than what Steve has brought up here. Jesuss kin in Nazareth did not fully understand his status as the Messiah. Should we baptize babies or not? He rejected that dogma, though he did not believe Matthew 1:25 proved it. I would give this analogy to my protestant brothers and sisters. So thats also a bad argument. And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. So if Mary died, which the dogma, the bodily assumption in 1950 strongly implies, this demonstrates Mary inherited original sin from Adam. And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. Really enjoying this. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. The phrase [foreign language 00:26:17] is used throughout the Septuagint or the Greek Old Testament without implying any kind of reversal. ): 32 (3488th overall since 1960) High School: Trafalgar ( Canada ) 2 2 8 2 SUMMARY Career G 229 AV 45 FGM 336 FGA 431 XPM 468 XPA 473 Career Postseason 1990 1991 Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. David K. Clark - apologist with notable books; teaches at Bethel Seminary. So I think that is highly significant theres something very, very special about Mary in the way that its used along with the words definition. Landlord. Finally, lets look at the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Well, in your example, its talking about father. A concrete example of this would be sacrifice. Well, first of all, I would say that I disagree with Trent as a Catholic as how you define the word church, that in Roman Catholicism church is defined specifically as the Pope of the magisterium, and then when you get baptized in the church, you become part of that. Before the 2001 regular season, Christie was placed on IR from an offseason groin injury having accuracy problems during the preseason being replaced by Jake Arians prior to the start of the season. Another piece of evidence against Christies claim that divine revelation ceased during the time of the deuterocanonical books is that the people of Jesus time believed there were contemporary prophets who spoke on behalf of God, such as John the Baptist and Jesus. So my point here is clear. Mary being the mother of God, ever virgin, immaculately conceived and bodily assumed into heaven. The earliest codex we have is the tenth-century-A.D. Aleppo codex, and it places the book of Chronicles at the beginning of the Writings (or ketuvim) and not as the last book of the Hebrew bible. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. For example, a Mormon dogma that says that Jesus is not God contradicts scripture explicitly, such as in John 20:28, when Thomas sees Jesus and calls him, My Lord and my God. Implicitly would be liberal Catholics and Protestants who condone abortion, which contradicts scripture stating that life begins at conception, and scripture condemns the shedding of innocent blood. Did they think that there was anything unbiblical about Mary being ever Virgin? As I showed earlier, you have people like Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, who were firmly I would not call them Catholic. Wait until after the debate, but if you want to go there now, its about that. He was a key contributor in the Bills comeback win against the Houston Oilers, in which Buffalo rallied from a 32-point deficit[2] to complete the largest comeback victory in NFL history. Thank you and God bless everyone. As I mentioned in my book, the case for Catholicism Pauls letter to the Thessalonians, he talks about the force restraining the man of lawlessness. When Mary declared God, my savior. In Luke 1:47, she understood that Jesus was the savior to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins, in Acts 5:31 and in Titus 2:9-11, which included her own. No, because their issue with Rome was about the sole authority of scripture over the sole authority of the church. So to summarize then Steve Well, actually lets see. So this question comes from Mitchell Godfrey, and Im going to just change his question a little because he said he is not going to be watching live. 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